This script has been lightly edited for clarity.

Jace Lacob: I’m Jace Lacob, and you’re listening to MASTERPIECE Studio.

Murder. Kidnapping. Blackmail. Just a few of the litany of crimes investigated by Eliza Scarlet and William Wellington — a.k.a. The Duke — crimes that were only solved thanks to the quick thinking and some rather unorthodox sleuthing by our title characters, helping to keep the streets of Victorian-era London a little less dangerous. 

CLIP

William: Well, I did suspect an imposter, but I didn’t know about the other wand.

Eliza: The other wand?

William: I found it on the magician when I examined his body.

Eliza: They’re identical.

William: On the face of it, yes. I noticed that the handle wasn’t quite aligned. And inside was this.

For four seasons, Miss Scarlet and The Duke has kept us on the edge of our seats, riveted not only by the serpentine mysteries that the duo has solved but also by the dynamic between these two, a rapport that goes beyond mere professionalism.

CLIP

William: I’m sorry, I don’t…

Arabella: Eliza? I assume she is the reason you’re late?

William: She was working the same case as me, yes, but that’s no…

Arabella: William, you talk of her incessantly. The things she says and does, her triumphs and disasters. Of course you claim she vexes you so, and causes you nothing but trouble, but the truth is there for all to see.

William: My relationship with Eliza is purely one of friendship.

Arabella: You are in love with her.

But nothing lasts forever. And by the fourth episode of Season Four, Eliza and William’s relationship is forever changed.

If you haven’t yet watched Season Four, Episode Four of Miss Scarlet and the Duke, stop what you’re doing and watch it before listening to what follows, because we’re about to discuss that transformation in depth.

Suitably warned? Let’s proceed.

CLIP

Eliza: Where are you going? You’re not well enough to go home yet.

William: I’m not going home. I’ve been to see the super and he has agreed I’m going to New York. Taking the secondment.

Eliza: For a year?

William: For a year.

What will the Duke’s departure mean for the show going forward? For Eliza? Today, we get some answers. Stuart Martin, who has played William Wellington for the past four seasons, will not be returning as the Duke for a fifth season. 

But that’s not the end for Miss Scarlet — far from it. In this episode, we talk with actor Stuart Martin, and writers Rachael New and Ben Edwards about this momentous shift, and what lies ahead for the future of the show.

Jace Lacob: We are back again this week with Miss Scarlet and the Duke star, Stuart Martin. Welcome.

Stuart Martin: Hello. How are you?

Jace Lacob: I’m good. How are you doing?

Stuart Martin: Long time no speak.

Jace Lacob: Yeah. So, big elephant in the room time. This elephant’s wearing a bowler hat. How did you come to the decision that series four of Miss Scarlet and the Duke would be your last?

Stuart Martin: It was very tough. It was very, very tough. I think there’s time, there’s a place to tell different stories, I think, for Eliza, to see what that is like without Duke, to kind of allow her to be not held back by Duke.

Jace Lacob: And Wellington, he’s in four episodes of series four, and I believe these are the first in which you’re credited, as well, as an executive producer. How much input, if any, did you have about the way in which Wellington would be written out of the show?

Stuart Martin: I think when we first broached it, my feeling was that we needed to kind of see them get together. It’s at that stage where we want to see them get together. So, I had written to Rachael and said, I think in having his departure, you allow them to get together, which is what we all want. And I think staying in the show, or staying part of this story, you can never quite allow that. Or they get together and then you’re going to have to pull them apart. Or they become a sort of married, bickering couple.

And I felt too strongly about the characters, I think, although Rachael and Ben would have done that so much better than I could ever imagine. But I think there’s something interesting in, if you’re going to carry on and do another couple of wonderful seasons, is to sort of just mix it up a little bit and pull the Duke out of that. Allow other stories, allow other conflicts.

So yeah, my feeling was that there’s something really interesting in him leaving, but also where you get to with that. You get to nail it. You get to put it all on the line, really, and we get to see them get to a moment that they probably wouldn’t get to if you were going to continue. Or certainly you’d have to pull them back from it.

Jace Lacob: One of the things I like is, as it’s written, Wellington’s departure from the show manages to be somehow both tragic and heroic at the same time. And there’s an element of altruism about his journey to America in that he and Eliza can both follow their dreams, and he’s not standing in her way. Do you see his decision as being ultimately altruistic? Is it an act of selfless love for him to take this secondment?

Stuart Martin: That’s such a good question. I’ve never thought of that. It’s very nice that you say it’s heroic. But I also kind of recognize that in myself of like, are you just running away? And that’s not to say that that’s a cowardly act, but are you taking yourself out of the situation because actually you can’t quite handle it? And I think he kind of is. He’s not running away, but he’s kind of begging to be pulled back from it, I think. I think the scenario that he sees in his head of how they could be together is very clear but it’s just not quite there. And that’s when he recognizes that it’s never really going to get there.

But I think he believes that she can still be amazing, do her job, and that they can have a balanced life together, and I think he would be willing to completely kind of… I don’t think he would see it as a compromise, but change his profession, somehow work this out. But I think we see in 4, and kind of throughout, that he doesn’t see that she would really be able to compromise too much.

Jace Lacob: Actors will often take something from the set to remember a production. It becomes almost sort of talismanic in a way. Did you take anything with you from Miss Scarlet?

Stuart Martin: No, and I should have.

Jace Lacob: You didn’t take the hat? Oh, I would’ve taken the hat.

Stuart Martin: Do you know what? It was like, the hat is an expensive piece. There’s only one of them. You can’t take that with you. I’m trying to think, I wish I’d taken my watch. I had that watch for four seasons.

Jace Lacob: Tie pin, something.

Stuart Martin: I know.

Jace Lacob: Now I know you had to do ADR, so you had to come back a little bit to sort of finish some stuff up. But I am wondering, what went through your head when they said that’s a series wrap for Stuart Martin? What sort of emotions were you experiencing on that final day?

Stuart Martin: It feels such a silly thing to do in a way, you know, because you’re going, God, I love this show. I love everything about it. I continually love every script and every line that comes in. But it really did feel like the right thing, I think, for the longevity of the show.

So, yeah, I remember, I watched the scene the other day actually, really, I think it’s in episode one, my last scene was in the morgue, with lovely Simon, he’s just brilliant. I love him. And it was in there. And it was so lovely. Everyone came in. And I’m a terrible, terrible, nervous speech maker. I get anxiety about it. I get a hot head. My ears go bright red. I hate it. And, for some reason I thought I’m going to say some words because I couldn’t not just say thank you to the amazing crew and everyone out there. I don’t quite know what I said. It wasn’t a speech, but I think I said thank you. They’re such a wonderful family.

Jace Lacob: Okay, so I found an interview you did before Jamestown launched, and you recounted a teacher at Langside College telling you he didn’t think you were into acting, and you should, “think about doing something else.”

Stuart Martin: Yeah.

Jace Lacob: Do you still think about that conversation at all, and did it spur you on?

Stuart Martin: Oh, God, yeah, it did. It did. Because you believe it, don’t you? And I think those conversations happen throughout your life, really, and they continue to kind of happen. You know, every time you don’t get a job, you can kind of feel like that. There’s only so much of your own confidence that you can have. And there are periods where you go up for loads of things and you might get very close, or you might get feedback, or you might get none, but then you still don’t get it.

You know, there isn’t that kind of affirmation, is that the right word, of, you should do this. You’re alright at this. You’re going to be able to provide for your family and continue doing what you’re doing. So, I feel like you kind of have that conversation all the time. Or when a review comes in, or when one of your mates says something. I think TV can be so… it’s in everyone’s home. It’s kind of beamed in, so everyone’s got an opinion on it. Whether that’s positive or negative, they’ll kind of tell you.

And that was the amazing thing about Scarlet was it was kind of universally… or it was really loved by this brilliant fan base, the Scarleteers. They were just such warm, lovely fans who got as passionate about it as you did. And over the last four or five years, they’ve kind of stuck with it and had really interesting conversations about it. And that is kind of, to answer your question, you’re kind of constantly told that anyway. So, it is great training.

But you know what, you’ll be told that in any profession. And any time that you start thinking, oh, maybe I should, maybe it’s too much, that’s just the reality of our profession and a lot of professions. But I think in that moment, I certainly came away from it going, well, this is what I’m going to do. And these are the reasons why. You have to drill down on what your reasons are. If you can’t find those reasons, maybe it’s not for you and that’s all right. And that person probably wasn’t being particularly unkind or malice. They were just kind of spotting something. But luckily, I could go, well, no, it is actually. And these are the reasons why.

And I think throughout any kind of hard moments, I can always find the thing that I love about it. And the funny thing was, I kind of realized this last year that really, it sounds a bit cliché, but I drilled down to it being storytelling. And I never thought it was that. I always thought, oh, I like this part, I like the thing of play. And then I kind of drilled it down and I was like, oh, it’s storytelling. When I was a kid, I used to love playing games and imagination and not necessarily telling stories but having those stories for myself. So that’s been an interesting thing over the last couple of years to go, oh right, the storytelling is what I’m really passionate about. So, you always drill down to that.

Jace Lacob: So, then it does beg the question, what do you ultimately, and this is a big question, what do you ultimately take away from your experience on Miss Scarlet and the Duke? What memories will you hold particularly close to you?

Stuart Martin: Oh, I mean, wow. I almost choked up there. Well, I did choke up. I almost cried there. I think it’s, do you know what, I have to say, Rachael taking a chance on me and really backing me and, from my point of view, approaching the whole process differently.

But what I loved about Rachael was we went and met, Kate was obviously already on board, and we went and met in a restaurant in Soho, I think the three of us all together. And I just went in and I didn’t read, we chatted, she had looked at my stuff, and she looked at everyone’s stuff, and she knew what everyone had done, and that’s why she called us in. And I loved the fact that it was just like, yep, I like Stuart, he’s the Duke. And she just backed that, against everyone, and it was brilliant. And I’ve always kind of gone, that’s kind of the way you do it. She’s amazing and against everything she sort of went, that’s our Duke. That’s who we want.

And I’m always so appreciative that she backed that, and she took a chance. And yeah, it’s performed like such a beautiful four years of my life. And there’s this whole world that we have now, of this, however many episodes we’ve done, that feel like they will always be part of my life. It feels much bigger than other series I’ve done, a couple of series of in the past. I feel very linked to that world and that show.

And it kind of follows you, you know? I’m over in the States and I’ll meet someone, and they’ll come up to me and say how much they love the show and that is such a lovely thing. And it’s a really nice thing as an actor to, as you say, with that conversation where someone asks you, maybe you shouldn’t do this, you can always jump back to that in your head in the low moments and go, ah, well I did that.

Jace Lacob: So for fans of Miss Scarlet and the Duke, for those Scarleteers who may be crushed to learn that Wellington won’t be back, what would you say to them?

Stuart Martin: I would just thank them for that support and that love that they’ve given the show and also the characters and that they’ve given Duke. And I think that where we get to go in season four, I loved because it feels very honest, and it feels honest to the show and it feels honest to the fans.

We get to go there with them, and hopefully still really keep them entertained up to that moment. And then, going into other seasons, really continue to keep them entertained and keep the drama there. And I think that was kind of the intention with it. So hopefully, hopefully they don’t hate me, but they also see that it’s kind of a thing that can hopefully give it the potential to continue to have that drama that they fell in love with.

Jace Lacob: Stuart Martin, thank you so very much.

Stuart Martin: Thank you so much.

MIDROLL – We’ll take a short break to hear a word from our sponsors and when we return, we’ll hear from writers Rachael New and Ben Edwards as they address the future direction of the show without The Duke.

Jace Lacob: Okay, so it seems clear Stuart Martin won’t be returning to Miss Scarlet and The Duke. Stuart only appears in a handful of episodes in series four before William is seconded to New York. What sort of conversations did you have with Stuart ahead of time about how his character’s departure would be handled?

Rachael New: Well, this wasn’t something that we did lightly, but it actually came from Stuart himself. He felt that he’d taken the character as far as he could go, and that this would be the natural point for Duke to leave. So, we kind of just embraced it really as much as possible, and absolutely see his point that Eliza and Duke’s lives were… they couldn’t make the sacrifices they needed to be together. They admitted they love each other, but it probably wasn’t going to work.

So, yeah, we shipped him off to New York. It seemed like the best journey for him, to go and explore a different world. And it leaves Eliza to explore a different Duke-less world. As writers, obviously you miss your big main characters, but it’s always something that, you know, a challenge is good. A challenge keeps things fresh. And we’re pretty good at embracing any changes. So, we just went with it and said, right, okay, this is where we’re at and we’re going to go for it.

Jace Lacob: In the spirit of Eliza herself.

Rachael New: Exactly.

Jace Lacob: William is shot in episode 2, he recovers in episode 3, departs in 4. Was there any thought or consideration given whether to kill off the character rather than send him to New York? Or did you want to leave the door open even just slightly for a possible return?

Ben Edwards: Yeah, I don’t think we ever talked about killing him off because we just thought it would be too final, too cruel for Eliza, for the audience, and quite frankly, would limit our options for the show going forward, I think. But at this point in their lives, I think Duke and Eliza aren’t ready to be together.

Jace Lacob: Stuart’s departure begs the question; do you retitle the show without the Duke? Does that new signage for “Eliza Scarlet, Private Investigator” perhaps point towards a new title?

Rachael New: Yes, absolutely. It will be called Miss Scarlet onwards.

Jace Lacob: And are you concerned at all by how viewers will react to the departure of both Stuart and the Duke himself?

Ben Edwards: I mean, inevitably, that will be a factor, but I suppose in terms of the stories we’ll tell, Eliza is still the only female detective in London. She still has to prove herself to a world of 19th century men, but now without an ally at Scotland Yard. So, her life has gotten harder in that respect. But there are still crimes to solve, a business to rebuild, and new relationships to forge. There are a lot of other characters, both existing and new, that we’re going to bring in. So, from our point of view, we’re excited about it. And we hope the audience will go with us on the journey, really.

Rachael New: Yeah, I mean, ultimately, this is a feminist show. It’s about a woman’s survival. And there’s something actually really quite poignant and, I don’t know, something that people can relate to, which is that things don’t work out sometimes. And it’s about her picking herself up and dusting herself down, and getting on with her life, and making the best of things. And I think it fits perfectly with the Eliza we know and love in terms of her character. So, it’s another arrow that’s been slung at her, but she does prevail. And I think that’s very, very much in keeping with the themes of the show. And that’s why the fans love it so much.

Jace Lacob: As much as viewers might mourn the loss of Wellington and Stuart Martin, I feel like this is an opportunity as writers to take the show into unexpected territory. Does it excite you to be able to reconfigure the show in some way to embrace that feminist aspect that you mentioned and push Eliza in a different direction?

Rachael New: Absolutely. When you’re writing, sometimes you want those obstacles. You have to push yourself out of your comfort zone. Otherwise, things get pretty dull. And this was something that we did embrace, and it has taken us to lots of different stories to explore for her. So yeah, it was exciting. It really was very exciting.

Jace Lacob: So, Miss Scarlet will return for a fifth series. As vague as you can be, what can you tease about where we might then find Eliza when we pick it back up with her?

Rachael New: I can say that, as I said, it was a very exciting season to write. I think we push Eliza to her limits. We have some really beautiful storylines. There are new friendships to be forged for her. We pull Clarence through a little more which has been super fun. We were so delighted with Paul bringing life to Clarence. I think it’s just brought a whole other aspect to the show.

And we explore the other characters more, you know, Potts and Ivy, Fitzroy and Phelps, they make such a cracking partnership. We explore that as well. So, I really think, and I really, really hope that this season is going to go down very well, because I think it’s a really beautiful season.

Jace Lacob: Well, I can’t wait. Rachael New and Ben Edwards, thank you so very much.

Ben Edwards: Thank you. Great to speak to you.

Rachael New: Pleasure. Thank you, Jace.

Next time, our double feature spring season begins as we investigate a behind the scenes real-life soap opera drama and the emotional highs and lows of a romance over 15 years.

CLIP

John: Congratulations, you’re the first woman in the world to appear on color TV. I’m sorry, I’m forgetting my manners. I should’ve said, I’m John Logie Baird. Who are you?

Nolly: Noele. My name’s Noele Gordon. People call me Nolly.

The series premieres of Nolly followed by Alice & Jack begin Sunday, March 17th at 9pm Eastern, 8pm central.