Brooks and Capehart on Biden’s State of the Union and what’s next in the 2024 race

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• Amna Nawaz:

  An impassioned State of the Union address by President Biden served as an unofficial kickoff to the general election.

  On that and what lies ahead in the race for the White House, we turn now to the analysis of Brooks and Capehart. That is New York Times columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, associate editor for The Washington Post.

  Great to see you both, as always.

  Jonathan, thank you for joining us from Philadelphia, where we know the president is appearing today.

  Let's talk about that speech last night, though, because the numbers are in, according to Nielsen, huge numbers for President Biden. Some 32 million Americans tuned in to watch. That's 18 percent higher than last year. And as we noted, it was a pretty fiery delivery. Some unscripted back-and-forths, we will call them, including moments like this, unfolded.

  Joe Biden , President of the United States: We have two ways to go.

  Republicans can cut Social Security and give more tax breaks to the wealthy. That's the proposal.

  (Shouting)

• Joe Biden :

  Oh, no? You guys don't want another $2 trillion tax cut? I kind of thought that's what your plan was.

  (Laughter)

• Joe Biden :

  Well, that's good to hear. You're not going to cut another $2 trillion for the super wealthy? That's good to hear.

• Amna Nawaz:

  David, going into the speech, you said you were looking for some poetry. Did you find any?

• David Brooks:

  I said pugilism. I didn't say poetry. I said pugilism. I got a lot of pugilism.

  (Laughter)

• David Brooks:

  So, we got a lot of boxing.

  So I guess, on a day's reflection, two thoughts come to mind. The first is that the Democrats have had trouble figuring on how to respond to the Trump era. And so the first era — the first response was the Michelle Obama, they go low, we go high. And that's clearly gone, because they're going super partisan and they're going super strong with the fight.

  And I think a lot of Democrats just wanted to see the fight. And so he's come out as a pretty partisan fighter. And I think a lot of Democrats will be very pleased by that.

  The second is just reflecting on all the moving pieces in that speech and how they touched a lot of bases to reassure Democrats. And I'm most struck by the fact that he led with Ukraine. It's so unusual to begin a State of the Union speech with like one issue and then one issue that, frankly, turns around the whole political universe.

  Like, I was looking at these liberal Democrats on the floor thinking, yes, more defense spending, more military systems, and all the Republicans are saying, no, no, no, no. So, like, what world am I in? Because in the Republican — my world, the Republican Party is for more defense, more aggressive foreign policy.

  But we have seen a reversion of the political universe. Finally, on that Social Security thing, he's kind of wrong. Donald Trump has explicitly said there will be no cuts to Social Security and entitlements. So it's kind of unfair. But he clearly wanted that fight, enjoyed the fight, got to have the fight.

• Amna Nawaz:

  And it was the same moment last year that goaded the same congresswoman, Marjorie Taylor Greene, into a little bit of a back-and-forth.

• David Brooks:

  Right.

• Amna Nawaz:

  But, Jonathan, over to you now.

  Look, the president did have some lingering concerns he was trying to address going into the State of the Union. Did he do what he needed to do in those remarks?

• Jonathan Capehart:

  Yes, he absolutely did.

  And, David, you got the pugilism because I think not only Democrats wanted to see the president fight. I think lots of Americans wanted to see, is this guy really alive, as, you know, the Republicans keep saying he's practically dead, that he's senile? And the man who showed up yesterday was decidedly not.

  And in that clip you played, yes, it was sort of reminiscent of last year. He was negotiating in real time, trying to paint them into a corner in real time. Sorry, but someone who's not all there can't do that in front of a crowd of people on live television in a high-stakes address.

  What he did overall, I think, was reassure the country and reassure — reassure the country and reassure Democrats that not only is he willing to fight, but he's willing to fight for the things that he's accomplished. He's willing to fight for the things he wants to try to do and that he's willing to fight for them in the same way that Republicans or MAGA folks view Donald Trump as fighting for them.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Jonathan, he didn't mention Donald Trump once by name last night, though. Should he have?

• Jonathan Capehart:

  No. Well, I think that that was on purpose, because even though David says that last night was a very partisan speech, he didn't mention Donald Trump's name, until today.

  His rally here in Pennsylvania wrapped up about 20 minutes before we — before this segment, and he used Donald Trump's name a lot. He's not shying away from the fight at all.

• Amna Nawaz:

  David, I want to ask you about the Republican response. That was delivered by first-term Alabama Senator Katie Britt. Much of her remarks focused on immigration and crime, but part of her message was on the economy. Here's what she had to say.

• Sen. Katie Britt (R-AL):

  The American people are scraping by, while President Biden proudly proclaims that Bidenomics is working. Goodness, you all, bless his heart.

• Amna Nawaz:

  David, she is 42 years old. She's accomplished in her own right, but unique among Senate Republicans because she's also a mother to school — to school-age children. Who are Republicans hoping to reach?

  (Crosstalk)

• David Brooks:

  Yes, I'm her last defender.

• Amna Nawaz:

  OK. Go for it.

  (Laughter)

• David Brooks:

  So I thought she did a completely adequate job. I expect to do our segment from my kitchen from now on, just to stay in tune.

  There are a lot of parts of the country where you're supposed to show how smart you are, but, most of the country, you don't do that. You show you have good feelings, you're concerned about your family, you're equal, and you're like, just nobody's better than me, nobody's — I'm no better than anybody else.

  And I thought she exemplified a style of communication that may not be popular in the media world, but is popular in most of the country, and most people will look at her and say, yes, maybe she overacted a little, but she was, I thought, a compassionate, smart, effective person.

  She happens to be completely wrong on what we just showed. We just had 275,000 new jobs. Like, we have one of the greatest economies. We have the greatest economy in the world of any major economy. So the idea that people — that Joe Biden is puffing up the economy is just completely wrong.

  Now, it is true that American people are in a bad mood. I think it's — I call it a pessimism bubble. But she — I thought she was completely fine and will appeal to a lot of moms, a lot of suburbanites who are just not super into politics, but they sense that something's wrong with the country, maybe spiritually, morally, relationally, and they will think, well, I sort of — I know people like her.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Jonathan, many of those voters that David's talking about are some of the same voters, the former Haley voters we were talking about, that President Biden was making sort of an appeal to himself.

  Could she reach some of them?

• Jonathan Capehart:

  I mean, maybe. Maybe she can. I mean, those are voters who are up for grabs.

  But maybe she is from the MAGA wing of the Republican Party, and the folks who are voting for Haley might not like her. I mean, I think David's being charitable in saying that she maybe overacted a bit. I mean, it was — it made it difficult to watch. Between the range in her octaves and how she was saying what she was saying and performing what she was saying, it was kind of hard to hear what she was saying.

  And the other thing is, I know if, Hugh Hewitt, who is one of the most conservative thinkers out there, fellow columnists at The Washington Post, if he and I are in agreement about how bad the Republican response is, that tells me she was bad.

  (Laughter)

• Amna Nawaz:

  I think it is safe to say we are in general election mode right now.

  And if that is the case, David, what was said last night and how it was said, what does that tell us about what we are going to see for the next eight months?

• David Brooks:

  Well, I — one of the nice things I loved about last night is we were talking about policy. Like, Biden crammed that speech filled with policy, early childhood education, whatever, student debt forgiveness.

  It was just…

  (Crosstalk)

• Amna Nawaz:

  Tax reform, housing…

  (Crosstalk)

• David Brooks:

  Tax reform. It's, like, crammed.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Yes.

• David Brooks:

  And one of the problems with the anti-Trump world has been too much reliance on this. Trump says some horrible things. We all react, oh, that's so horrible. We watch our favorite commentators who say that was really horrible. And then we expect there to be some massive moral turn on him.

  And we expect the indictments are going to lead — we expect some — like, something that will just wipe him off the face of the earth, and we will get to feel vindicated. It feels good, this exercise. It's been a total failure, because we have been doing it for six years, and Donald Trump is more — politically in a better spot now than he has been ever before.

  And so, to me, if Biden's going to beat him, it has to be on reminding people, oh, this policy, yes, I kind of like that. I kind of like that. Most people are not looking for moral leadership from politicians anymore. They're looking like, who's going to make my life a little better? And so I loved the emphasis on policy last night.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Jonathan, you agree with that?

• Jonathan Capehart:

  No, I absolutely agree with it.

  And, actually, it's sort of a vindication of what the Biden White House has been saying from the very beginning. If we focus on getting legislative accomplishments, if we focus on getting wins on the board, if we focus on getting things into law that will then start making people's lives better, that we can then turn around and go back to the American people and say, look what we have done, not what we have promised to do, but what we have done, then that is half the battle.

  And what we saw last night, I think David is absolutely right, that speech was crammed with all sorts of planned — things that he's done and things that he wants to do, right down to the billions of dollars over 10 years. And I think we are going to see the president talk about those things, both what he's done and what he wants to do, as he goes on the campaign trail.

  And that's top of mind, because, like I said before, I just watched the rally. It is the — it's the State of the Union speech, just with Donald Trump's name in it.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Jonathan, do you think that Mr. Trump and Mr. Biden will debate? And should they?

• Jonathan Capehart:

  Yes, they should debate. I don't know whether they will debate, but I do know this. I think President Biden absolutely wants to debate.

  The question is, does Donald Trump? And that, I'm not — I'm not convinced that he does.

• David Brooks:

  Well, he said he does.

  So you should debate. It's a presidential campaign. All of our lifetimes, they have debated. I don't know when it started, but certainly since Nixon and Kennedy. And so there absolutely should be a debate. Whether it'll be useful, eh. I mean, if you look at who wins debates, it doesn't lead to who wins elections.

  Barack Obama had a terrible first debate in his reelect. He cruised. George W. Bush never did particularly well in debates. He won twice. So debates don't determine elections, but they should absolutely do. It'll be fun for us.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Thirty seconds left or so.

  I have to ask you, David, the No Labels third-party group is saying they will be fielding an independent candidate. What kind of impact would that have?

• David Brooks:

  It could have an impact.

  Mike Rawlings, the former Dallas mayor, I know him. He's a very good guy, a very serious guy. So these are not like half-baked people. But I have long thought, looking at the data, that, whoever they put up, it's going to hurt Biden more than it's going to hurt Trump. And I guess I still believe that.

• Amna Nawaz:

  We will see.

  David Brooks, Jonathan Capehart, always great to see you both. Thank you so much.

• Jonathan Capehart:

  Thanks, Amna.